Hades Unveiled - Jamie Waggoner

What if the Greek god of the underworld isn't who you think he is? Join us as we uncover the mysteries of Hades with our special guest Jamie Waggoner, an accomplished author, pagan priestess, and expert in the occult. Jamie shatters common misconceptions by distinguishing Hades from the devil, providing clarity on the difference between the ancient Greek underworld and the Christian concept of hell. Drawing insights from her book "Hades: Myths, Magic, and Modern Devotion," Jamie offers a fresh perspective on Hades, highlighting his often overlooked aspects and exploring his significance in both ancient and modern contexts.

We dive into the topics of death, shadow work, and desires, discussing the collective trauma and death phobia that plagues our contemporary society. Jamie elaborates on the importance of experiencing death within a community, explaining how communal grieving can make the process less intimidating. We touch on the role of mythological figures like Hypnos and Thanatos in life's transitions and consider how embracing death as an advisor can lead to more meaningful life decisions. Jamie also emphasizes Hades' role in shadow work, particularly through his epithet "Clemenos," shedding light on his notorious actions in mythology.

In our final chapter, we explore the mystical teachings and tools of ancient Greek gods, focusing on Hades and his Helm of Invisibility. Jamie explains how Hades' unseen nature can guide us in knowing when to assert ourselves and when to remain concealed. We introduce our listeners to the "Way of the Weaver" program, which offers inclusive teachings on magic, and share Jamie's exciting news about her upcoming follow-up book. Wrapping up, we express heartfelt gratitude to our listeners and promise more intriguing content in future episodes. Don't miss this enlightening conversation that promises to reshape your understanding of the divine and the mystical.

Chapters

• 0:00 Exploring Hades
• 14:35 Death, Shadow Work, and Desires
• 26:56 The Way of the Weaver
• 38:39 The Priest X Project

Transcript

Granddaughter Crow: 0:00

Welcome to Belief, being and Beyond with your host, Granddaughter Crow. Hi everybody, Granddaughter Crow here with another episode of Belief, being and Beyond and, as I love to do, bring you guys the beyond to be Jaand and their book about Hades. Gotta love it. I've got so many things but, Jamie, just before I give you a full intro, say hello to the Belief, being and Beyond audience.

Jamie: 0:46

Hey everybody, I'm so glad that you could join us, and thank you so much, Granddaughter Crow, for inviting me to talk with you today.

Granddaughter Crow: 0:54

It is my pleasure and my honor and I'm going to go ahead and give you guys a brief intro of Jamie W, author, pagan priestess and occult expert, which I love this because, in looking at her background, philosophy, etc. Been practicing for witchcraft for over 25 years. Author of what we're going to be talking about today Hades Myths, magic and Modern D, which was released in 2024 by Llewellyn Worldwide. There is so many wonderful things that you get into and, just looking over everything, one you can't ignore Hades. The beauty around what I found with this is in doing so much research about you, about Hades, I'm like is this the first book of its kind with modern divination towards the god Hades?

Jamie: 1:59

Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. Yeah, there's a lot. If you, if you want to study the Greek god, ades, and the Greek underworld, there's a lot of sort of scholarly material out there that you that you can check out. Hades does you know? Hades gets a mention if you have a book about, you know, working with the Greek gods or doing witchcraft with the Greek gods. Astrea Taylor and Jason Mankey released a book pretty recently about that, but he gets kind of a passing mention but he doesn't get a lot of attention. And when I started working with Hades in 2016, I had to do a lot of my own research and experimentation and this book is the culmination of all of that and I'm really excited that Llewellyn wanted to publish it so that it's all there in one place for other people like me who might be interested in working with Hades.

Granddaughter Crow: 2:50

I absolutely love it. So, yes, people, we're going to go there. You know, the beauty around this, jamie, is that you know, I'm granddaughter Crow and crows and ravens are my main totem, and crows and ravens are my main totem, and we are known as going to the underworld, going to the darkness, going to the mysticism and finding those jewels and that light, as well as we are known to be psychopomps, you know the people who help carry them over to the other side. The people who help carry them over to the other side, and so that's why I really love this book is because we get to talk about bringing to light some of the darkness and the unseen and the unknown. So how would you describe Hades? I think one of the misconceptions is that Hades is the devil and the underworld is hell. Clear this up, for us Right?

Jamie: 3:46

No, that's actually one of the primary misconceptions about him. So you know there's a number of reasons why that happened. It was a little bit of a lost in translation situation, when you know, when the Christian Bible was being codified and being put together, the Old Testament is in Hebrew, the New Testament is in Hebrew. The New Testament is in Greek originally, and in Hebrew there's a word called shul, and shul is a place for the dead to go. It's a realm of the dead, but there's not really an equivalent translation into Greek.

Jamie: 4:19

And the closest thing they came up with was Hades, because sometimes the god is called Hades and sometimes the underworld is also called Hades, which can be a little confusing for us.

Jamie: 4:29

So they've translated this old Hebrew word into Greek as Hades and eventually, as the Bible kept being translated and different versions were produced, hades became synonymous with hell. So the underworld became synonymous with hell and Hades, the god, became synonymous with the devil. But in reality, in the ancient Greek understanding, as well as my personal understanding, the Christian mythos and the ancient Greek mythos are two completely different belief systems. And then we had other, you know, poets that came along, such as John Milton in Paradise Lost, and Dante and his Inferno, and they sort of sprinkled in lots of ancient Greek and Roman mythology in amongst their like descriptions of, you know, either Christian paradise or Christian hell. So, yeah, we had a little bit of a lost in translation issue going on for a long time. But I'm happy to clear that up because I think it's one of the reasons that people get intimidated to approach Hades or approach working with him or the underworld is because that misconception persists even today.

Granddaughter Crow: 5:41

Yeah, I absolutely agree. Yeah, I absolutely agree, and you know this is one of the wonderful things that I see that you've done in your work. So, in the pagan witchery mysticism community, about the rise of the feminine divine, female, female, female and being raised in a very strict Christian upbringing, very patriarchal, masculine type thing, that seemed to be a revival for me. But you actually now are introducing the rise of the masculine divine in such a different way. I just caught that and I'm like oh, this is going to help rebalance and reshape us individually and as a community. What do you have to say about that?

Jamie: 6:40

Oh, thank you so much for recognizing that. Oh, thank you so much for recognizing that. So you know, I've been a pagan, a practitioner of magic and witchcraft for just over 25 years now, and when I first started out I worked with goddesses only basically, you know, because, coming from a conservative background, being raised in Christianity, like you also mentioned, of background being raised in Christianity, like you also mentioned, I didn't really I wanted to kind of get away from the sort of patriarchal top-down notion of belief and wanted to explore some different energy. And so it was a very long time that I worked with primarily goddesses from Welsh mythology, from the Mabinogion, so like Ceridwen and Bronwyn, Rhiannon, Lodioweth, yeah, which was great, which was fabulous, and I still work with them and have relationships with them.

Jamie: 7:29

And then working with Hades sort of was an opportunity that like fell into my lap. I didn't really seek it out, so he sought me out in a sense. But the more I worked with him and sort of got to know him a little bit, better I was like he's a very different way of being masculine, presenting His way is much more steadfast, it's much more nurturing. It's not so much power over it's power with and supportive power over it's power with and supportive. And it is really interesting, especially when I talk to some of my friends from, like, the goddess communities that I was part of before, and you know they're like, how did you start working with Hades?

Jamie: 8:18

And you know it's like, once I really felt the depth of his personality and his character and his care for his family and for the. You know the mortal shades, the shades of the deceased, that live in his realm. There is really no question for me anymore. There is no way I could not work with him after experiencing the depth of his personality. So I'm really hoping that it might, you know, like you said, give people something to think about when they think about masculinity and maybe balancing that with femininity and what that can look like.

Granddaughter Crow: 8:54

I absolutely, really appreciate that and I think my listeners will really appreciate that as well. So you know I don't want to give too much away. So you know I don't want to give too much away people, but this is a book that should accompany any witches. You know library, just because it's not only you know with. You know Jamie's background and deep research and credibility with this. There's a lot of personality within. You know, I think you begin each chapter with a little prose or something, so that we kind of get to know Hades from a personality aspect.

Jamie: 9:41

Yeah, I do so. Each chapter begins with a narrative piece. Yeah, I do so. Each chapter begins with a narrative piece and it's in first person, it's in Hades' voice, speaking about different aspects of his life and his realm and his family, and I did it for that purpose that I was talking about earlier of really introducing his personality to people outside of what most people know of him and what most people know of him.

Jamie: 10:11

It kind of falls into a little a couple different categories. Either it's like pop culture Hades, it's like, you know, blue Hades with fire hair from, like the Disney movie, or it's you know. Or it's, you know, Hades from the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, which is the story when Persephone gets kidnapped and Demeter searches for Persephone and we get the allegory for the changing of seasons, and that's what people really sort of know about him. And so, just to bring out his personality a little bit more, he and I wrote those portions together. I did a lot of trance journey and talking to him and asking him, you know. So I'm writing this for a modern audience. I'm writing this, you know the year I was writing. It was 2022 to 2023. You know, what do you want people to know about you now, Like what's important to know now, and he really, you know, led that process a lot, especially for those narrative pieces.

Granddaughter Crow: 11:02

I love that, I love that. So why would one want to work with Hades? Legit question.

Jamie: 11:14

Yeah, there's actually a lot of reasons, you know. First of all, I think you know kind of the obvious answers come up as far as if you're someone that's drawn to the mysteries of death and dying and communicating with the dead. Hades is sort of a natural patron for you to work with or a natural mentor for you to work with. But because there are other facets of his personality, you can work with him for many different things. For example, one of Hades' names is Polydegmon, which means host of many, and it refers to the fact that it's his responsibility to host all of the dead between lifetimes. And you know, if you want to learn more about being a good host, and you know, if you want to learn more about being a good host, you know whether it's a host for your own heart, your own spirit, or a host for those you love friends and family, or a host in the community, for something Hades can really teach you a lot about that. I mean, he's had lots of experience. You know he can teach you a lot about being. Another one of his epithets is Adamastos, which means like unyielding or unbreakable, and so he can teach you a lot about, you know, sticking to your convictions, being in a place of integrity, things like that. So there are many, many different reasons.

Jamie: 12:31

I find Hades and the whole underworld crew to be highly protective of those who work with them. So if you are looking for like greater levels of protection for yourself or your home, they're happy to do that. I also find that you know there's a lot of justice wrapped up in the underworld. One of Persephone's epithets is Praxidiki, which translates to exactor of justice or something very similar to that. The Furies, who are these beings that have like wings and they fly with these like whips of you and they go after like the big bads out there, like the people that are abusers, the people that are murderers, the people that commit horrible, horrible crimes, and Persephone sort of sends them out, gives them their tasks, and so there's a lot of sort of justice magic that we can work here, working with those energies, and I don't think people really realize that that the underworld and all of the beings that inhabit it are very diverse and have like a wide array of things under their purview, not just death.

Granddaughter Crow: 13:41

I absolutely love that. I'm comfortable with death. I have been. Maybe it's because I'm a crow, a raven, but I do know that a lot of people are not comfortable even with that word or the concept.

Jamie: 14:01

But I'm like circle of life people, you know circle of life and it's hard because, yeah, it's hard, because we're very death avoidant, especially I'm speaking from my perspective as a person in North America, in what's currently called the United States, and so you know, we don't see death, we don't slaughter our own animals, we don't harvest our own vegetables. We go to the store and get things packaged in plastic. When people die, when our friends and families die, oftentimes they die in a hospital or in a care facility, or even if they die at home, cremated, whatever the process might be that the person has chosen, and so we were very detached from it. And even when we're grieving someone very close to us, we may have little to no time out of our daily responsibilities. We may have to be back at work within a week or maybe a month if we're lucky, or not at all in some cases. So we have this sort of collective trauma around death because we just don't see it and our nervous systems are not able to process change on that scale, especially if someone very close to us dies in that amount of time. Right, like we're. Just, we're not meant to do that, and you know so we.

Jamie: 15:39

The death phobia of modern culture continues to increase and I completely understand that this is a heavy topic, a hard topic and a scary topic really Absolutely understand that.

Jamie: 15:54

But I think that if we can start in small ways, we can start opening ourselves up more and more to the idea that death is actually a natural process and in most cases, death is not an emergency, it's something that is just naturally happening. Of course, there are some traumatic events that happen and things like that, but and it's part of what we're supposed to experience as humans, and not only as humans but we're supposed to experience it in community. I believe that. I believe that we're meant to be there when our loved ones and our friends transition you know, I include our pets and all of our furry family too and we're meant to help take care of their bodies. We're meant to help create the rituals and perform the rituals surrounding, you know, belovedly, putting them to rest, all of those things. Those would help us out so much more if we were able to engage in that and have those outlets for catharsis, and it would help death seem less scary.

Granddaughter Crow: 17:05

Yeah, if you're enjoying the Belief, being and Beyond podcast and would like to support it, I'm on Patreon. Just go to Patreon Granddaughter Crow or you can find it at granddaughter crowcom. Thank you so much. Yeah, and you know, moreover. I mean, although you know, jamie and I are talking about the death of, you know, the transition of a human soul, if you really kind of look at it, we go through so many micro deaths within our lifetime, to include the releasing, the letting go, I mean, even in the evening. That's a form of I'm going to let go of the light today and I'm going to go into a coma and then I'm going to come and rise up again. I mean, so for me, I see it that like familiar. What do you think about that?

Jamie: 18:01

Oh, I absolutely agree with you. I absolutely agree with you and I think it's, you know, one of the interesting things two of the characters that live in the underworld are Hypnos and Thanatos, right? So Hypnos is the being that brings you sleep every night and they're brothers and Thanatos is actually the being that at the end of your life, if you've lived a long life and it's just time for you to go, thanatos is who comes to get your soul, and so there's sort of reflections of one another, of those small deaths that happen every evening and then sort of that bigger death that happens, you know, once the life cycle is over. But so many other things happen Jobs end, relationships end, all kinds of things end. These are all transitions. These are all little deaths in our lives.

Jamie: 18:48

Also, death happens on like an existential scale. Right, we can talk about, you know so many things. Deforestation we can talk about, you know, when there's tragedies of you know, out in the world where folks are involved in wars or resource grabs or things like that. So there's, you know, death as a concept is vast, right, like it's, you know, more immediate to us when our friends and family and loved ones die. But death itself is. It encompasses many, many things, so I I definitely agree with you.

Granddaughter Crow: 19:24

Love that. I didn't know that, you know I. I remember there was this one part of this old old book old old book, maybe in the sevents it's not that old Well, 50 years ago. And it said use death as your advisor. Everybody's death is sitting on their left shoulder, and when you're walking through life and you don't know which way to go and you don't know what decision to make, ask your death.

Jamie: 19:53

Death will tell you that, yeah, I love that, because you, yeah, ask your death, because, I mean, none of us really know what happens after we die. You know, personally I do believe in the transmigration of the soul. I believe that we, you know, live different lifetimes and we go on somehow, but I don't know that for sure. And I really like that quote because it speaks to, like what's really important, what's the important decision to make, like what would you regret if you didn't do so? Yeah, I really like that, yay.

Granddaughter Crow: 20:28

Also, you know, in looking at it, I do a lot of shadow work and I'm about to come out with Shamanism in the Shadow book and I thought, well, would Hades help with shadow?

Jamie: 20:44

work. Yeah, there's a whole chapter on that. Yeah, there's a whole chapter on that in the book and Hades can really help with it a lot on that in the book and Hades can really help with it a lot. In particular, you know, hades has sort of a shadowy aspect to the, you know, to his mythos, one of his. Another epithet and if you're not familiar with that word, epithet is, it's like a poetic nickname, it's like a descriptive nickname. It's Clemenos, and Clemenos means notorious, and Hades the Notorious is where he's referred to. That refers to the abduction of Persephone, his role in the story of Persephone and Demeter, and so you know, it's very interesting to consider the, you know, aspects of his personality that seem difficult for us to understand or aspects of the story that seem difficult for us to understand. So, you know, I think working with him can help with that.

Jamie: 21:46

I think a lot of things that are, you know, things that you can't necessarily talk about in the light of day, you can take to the underworld, things that you can't necessarily talk about in the light of day, you can take to the underworld. It's a place where oftentimes, like, what seems sacred and profane are intertwined and it's very, very helpful for shadow work and one of the things I've learned about Hades now and I do a lot of practices with him. I do trance journey and I talk to him. I've also, you know, physically embodied him. I invited him to be in my body and participate in rituals and things like that. So I've overheard his conversations with other people and he oftentimes asked them about their desires, like what do they desire? And it reminds me of the quote that you brought up from the book, because he's very much interested in you.

Jamie: 22:38

Know what compels people Like you. Know what do you desire? What is the thing, like you said, what is the thing Like ask your desk to advise you? And he's very much aware of that. And a lot of times desire and shadow go hand in hand. We're very much approval seeking Speaking for myself and maybe some of you, maybe some of you can identify with that statement yeah, and so we oftentimes downplay our desires or maybe even bury them so deep because we're afraid. We're afraid that if we are who we truly are, that we won't get the approval that we love and want. And that's a very natural thing. That's, you know, that's a very natural thing. That's just being human. But Hades can kind of help you suss out kind of what you desire and also work with you to have the confidence to sort of bring that out in yourself more and more and become more comfortable with it sort of bring that out in yourself more and more and become more comfortable with it.

Granddaughter Crow: 23:45

Love that. I absolutely love that. Because, you know, sometimes I tell, I talk to my son, he's 33 and I keep advising him throughout his life to really deep dive into what does the word quote, unquote success mean to you today? Because a lot of times people just put it on like this measuring stick that equals, you know, a house, picket, fence, whatever, blah, blah, blah, a Mercedes. This is success. Well, maybe that's not what I desire. Maybe what I desire is to be a part of something greater, Like I get to go. Oh, I was a part of that. Look how we changed the world. You know, that's one of my deep desires and so and I love that and the ability to come forth, I remember I think it might have been when you did LlewellynCon 2024.

Granddaughter Crow: 24:38

And just a quick shout out to find out more about Jamie Wagner, go to jamiewagnercom. It's easy as that, guys, To keep track of what's going on in the underworld. No, I don't know, but to keep track of what's going on, sign up for her newsletter. There's a lot of. I mean. I checked it out on social media. It is jmwagonercom.

Jamie: 25:03

W-a-g-g-o-n-e-r social media.

Granddaughter Crow: 25:08

That's right. So you know and I was watching, I was reviewing you and people you can check it out. Go to YouTube LlewellynCon2024, look up Jamie and there's a lot of other wonderful authors on there. Just it's a really wonderful way to spend a weekend, or actually 10 days. I think that they went on for 10 days.

Jamie: 25:30

Yeah, yeah, they do that every year and it's always free. It's a really great event. Lou Ellen sort of rounds up some of us authors and we all take about half an hour and talk about whatever our specialty is.

Granddaughter Crow: 25:41

So yeah, I love that. And so one part in there you also talked about this dichotomy of the one who can cloak and the one who can do glamour, and can you share just a little bit about that, because we were talking about how to come out in the world. But there's also a time to kind of go. These are not the droids you seek, so to speak.

Jamie: 26:07

I love it. Yeah, I can talk about that. So the word Hades, it comes from an older form of the word Aedes, or Idonos or Idonaeus, like. There's kind of like morphed over the years.

Jamie: 26:22

But the root of that word means unseen and it refers to a couple of different aspects of his personality. I mean first of all the. You know, the dead in the realm of the underworld are not seen by the living. They're sort of out of sight, out of mind.

Jamie: 26:36

It also refers to the fact that during the war where Hades and his Olympian siblings because he's of the Olympian generation many people don't realize that, but he's not considered an Olympian because he doesn't live on Mount Olympus, but he's of that generation they overthrew their father Kronos and in order to do that they had some magical weapons. Zeus was given the thunderbolt, poseidon was given his trident, hades was actually given what's called the helm or helmet of invisibility, and you can imagine it's on the front of the book, it's, there's there, it is right there. It just looks like a Greek helmet or a Trojan helmet and when you put it on you disappear. And so what happens? I think with that aspect of his personality, the unseen one, he can kind of teach you a lot about like oh okay, now's the time to come forward and to be unyielding in my commitments and stand in my integrity.

Jamie: 27:29

And maybe now is the time to sort of like you know, go back and sort of conceal and wait and bide my time, or maybe, you know, maybe it's not safe for me, so I need a little more concealment. I need a little bit more of that invisibility type of glamour versus the out in the world glamour. So, yeah, I think he's a great again, a great mentor to work with, to teach you about that and, who knows, maybe if you ask nicely, he'll loan you the helm of invisibility if you need it. He does loan it out. He loans it out to people occasionally, so we have record of it. He's loaned it out to Athena. He loaned it out to Hermes once, yeah, so, among others, I love that and you know also.

Granddaughter Crow: 28:08

I really just wanted to reiterate what you had shared earlier about the protection aspects of the underworld and the whole, all of the beings in the underworld, and there is a lot of protection with it terms of you talk to those guys. Hey, I think I need protection. You better realize who you're asking, because they are down and dirty, literally down and dirty, right. What do you think about that?

Jamie: 28:40

yeah, their, their, um, their energies are heavy, their energies are heavy and they're big. So, um, you know, but they, they can be. I mean, if you need, if you need that, if you need that sort of heavy support and heavy protection, they're the ones to ask. I would just say that, um, you know, be in reciprocity, be in right relationships. So, if you are asking something from them, um, ask also what you can do for them and negotiate that right, because I, you know, um, in my perspective of modern devotion and working with the gods in a modern way, there's a process of negotiation and consent on both sides, and that's how we end up being in right relationship, and you know. So I think that, yeah, if you're going to ask them for something, kind of build it up as if you were building a friendship or another type of working relationship.

Granddaughter Crow: 29:31

I love that you threw that in, jamie, because I completely, 100% agree. I believe that when you're working with any deity, it is good to treat it like a friendship, a respectable, honorable friendship, where you get to know each other and then, when you make a request, you also offer something as well, and maybe this offering is just to light a candle, or maybe it's to write a book. I don't know if this is an offer or not, but you know and that there is a lot of give and take.

Jamie: 30:13

Yeah, no, absolutely Absolutely yeah. And I, you know, another question I get asked a lot. They're like, so, like, how do you, how do you just, how do you work with, like, how do you have a Hades altar in your house like all the time? How do you work with Hades every day? How do you like? I think you know just to, I think, different energies are. They there's, they're sort of uh, they're, they're like magnets, they're drawn to each other, and so I, um, I'm, I'm a pretty saturnine chthonic sort of person myself. I have a lot of earth in my chart, um, you know. So I'm drawn to those energies and I'm drawn to working with them. And you may or may not be like, it might be more of a short term thing for you, right? But I think that's fine as long as you're clear and upfront, even when you're working with deities or working with an animal ally, a plant ally, anybody, you know, I think that's just just being a respectful person Absolutely. I 100 percent agree, I 100% agree. So I mean is basically a program where we have, we have classes, we have community events, all kinds of things like that, and we combine teaching magic with social justice work and also building community. So and it's called Way of the Weaver because we don't we wanted to make it something that wasn't really specific to a tradition. So, you know, because it's what we teach is magic and energy work is sort of like an open source skill set right Like, here are the tools, and so you take the tools, learn the tools and then apply them to whatever your belief system might be and what makes sense to you, and so we do a couple different things this summer. We just had Weaver Camp, which is really fun. It's like a four-day witchy camp for grownups in the mountains of Vermont and that was a lot of fun. The next thing that we have coming up as far as an event or an offering is that we're going to be teaching a three-month deep dive into trance journey work, and that's going to be online. That's an online class. It'll run January through the end of March in 2025.

Jamie: 32:41

But if you want to know a little bit more about us and what we teach and kind of get to know our personalities, murphy and I have a podcast. It's just Way of the Weaver podcast. We put out two episodes a month. One at the beginning of the month is a tarot review. We kind of review what happened in the previous month and we look forward to the next month. And then the one that comes out in the middle of the month is more topical. So the one we actually just recorded, one on Monday, hasn't launched. It hasn't released yet. It'll release on the 13th of this month, but it's a it's on out of body and near death experiences. So we talk about all kinds of things and you can kind of get a sense for our personality and what the community is like. But yeah, if you want to check it out, the website is wayoftheweavercom.

Granddaughter Crow: 33:23

Yeah, and people, I checked it out. I was drawn in, not just because of the occulty work, but also this social justice, this queer friendly environment, this, of course you had a spider, because we're talking about weavers, and I love you know, I love that because it really kind of creates this interconnection. And I was looking at it and it said something to the effect. There was like this really cool thing. It said first, be of service to self, do your shadow work, get to know yourself, blah, blah, blah, and in beautiful words, not just blah, blah, blah. And then it said and then, secondly, hi, now I'm a goofball. And then, secondly, be of service to community and balance. And be of service to community and that'll look different depending on who your community is. And then, third, be of service to that which is unseen, be it the Hades, hail Hades or be it. You know, whatever that is to you, because here at belief, being and beyond, we keep going beyond to stretch our mind, to find out wow, I didn't know that was out there too, you know and and to be able to do this.

Granddaughter Crow: 34:43

But, yeah, and I was actually listening to, to one of your podcasts I think it was the latest one, you and Murphy. It's just, it's so pleasant and it feels like light. And then all of a sudden, oh, we start talking about world events. Then we come back and we're like how is that with the Eight of Cups, you know? And it's just like you know it's and I love that social justice and community aspect that you've got going on. It's not just another witch podcast, it's a brilliant interconnection, weaving, if you will, of some beautiful things, of you know being able to do magic and then actually being able to put it in our world, see it in ourselves, bring it to our community. So, yeah, if you wanted a commercial about your podcast, there you go.

Jamie: 35:39

Oh, thank you so much. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Social justice is very near and dear to both my heart and Murphy's and you know we talking about that, three levels of service, we, you know, we, in our own practices, before we started working together and even before we were friends, we noticed that sometimes there was some polarization. You had, like some magical practitioners who were very focused on self, like self-improvement, and you had some magical practitioners that are very focused on like, either like social justice, work out in the world, or you know, just like sort of those larger issues, and people tended to not they tended to our events of like, okay, we can actually work and operate and do magic on all three of these levels simultaneously, and in fact we should.

Jamie: 36:41

You know, yeah, we have a lot of fun, we do some very serious magic, but we have a lot of fun, kind of like what you were talking about, the podcast. We laugh and we're serious, but but yeah, it's and it's really really wonderful and the community itself is amazing as well, because I, you know, we, we do talk about like on our website and in our podcast. We're, we are definitely queer centric and very inclusive, and so we, you know, we're a home where, if you're you know, if you're not feeling like you fit a lot of places you probably fit with us.

Granddaughter Crow: 37:18

Oh, I love that. I absolutely love that. And quick to the listeners. You can text this show. Yeah, you can text the show and I'll get it. I won't know who you are, but I'll know that you came from California, so shout out to those Californians that are already texting the show.

Granddaughter Crow: 37:37

Once again, back to your book, hades. Jamie. You outdid yourself. Many, many blessings, many, many blessings to you, because this is going to be many, many blessings to you, because this is going to be, um, a revelation to a lot of people who don't know how to do or don't have all that time to do the work. But feel a connection, people, if you don't know what it feels like to have a connection, what I thought was great that jamie said was well, I didn't go seeking hades, hades found me, and I love that about the underworld gods, they tend to be that way, you know. They kind of come out and they're like, oh yeah, but if this is of interest, please pick it up. It's really, really good for any collection to balance you out, you know, so that you're not just high in the sky, that you actually came back to earth just like a tree. So is there any last words that you want to say, jamie.

Jamie: 38:37

Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you so much. I feel like I could talk to you for about three more hours, but we have to close our conversation for now. But I've been wonderful talking to you and I'm really, really excited to meet you and to get to know you more. And also, hey, everybody, thank you so much for for listening, and I'm very excited to announce that I am writing a followup to Hades right now. So even more, even more about the underworld, even more about the diverse character of characters and beings that are down there, the landscape features, and it was written all in the context of being a deaf priestess and that's priest with an X on the end to make it a little bit gender neutral. So if you're someone that really likes working that kind of magic or being that person in your community, I'm writing this one for you. So that's what I'm working on right now.

Granddaughter Crow: 39:29

I absolutely love that, so priest X I love that. Yeah, it's beautiful, that's beautiful. Well, thank you once again, and thank you, guys, for once again tuning into another episode of belief being in beyond. Please like, subscribe and share.