The Wild Hunt - Jamie Waggoner

Death isn't something to fear but rather a natural state of being. This profound insight from Jamie Waggoner, pagan priestess (PriestX) and author of "Hades: Myths and Magic and Modern Devotion," sets the tone for a conversation that transforms how we understand the autumn season and the mysteries beyond ordinary perception.
 
 As leaves fall and darkness claims more of each day, many spiritual practitioners feel the boundaries between worlds growing more permeable. But what if the "veil" isn't actually thinning? What if our awareness is simply expanding? Jamie suggests the unseen realms exist parallel to ours all the time—it's our willingness to perceive them that changes during this potent season.
 
 From her perspective as a hard polytheist who believes all gods are distinct entities with their own agendas, Jamie shares practical approaches to connecting with deities and ancestors. She describes her household tradition of setting a feast for Hades and Persephone at the autumnal equinox, complete with offerings buried in the earth and milk bones for Cerberus! We learn about the Wild Hunt led by Welsh deity Gwyn ap Nudd, who rides at Samhain gathering souls—and whose hounds create the curious phenomenon where the further away they sound, the closer they actually are.
 
 Jamie dispels common misconceptions about Hades and the underworld, explaining that unlike the Christian concept of hell, the Greek underworld isn't primarily a place of punishment. Most souls go to the Asphodel Fields—neither good nor bad—where we wait until reincarnation. This perspective transforms our understanding of death from something frightening into simply another phase of existence.
 
Whether through elaborate rituals or simple practices like mindful breathing or lighting a candle, Jamie offers accessible ways for anyone to connect with the unseen—even those who must practice in secret. Her insights reveal what many discover in deep spiritual work: unexpected nourishment, acceptance, and grounding in the very depths we once feared.
 
Curious about developing your own relationship with deities or ancestors this season? Explore Jamie's books or join her teaching programs at Way of the Weaver, where magic is taught as "open source technology" you can adapt to your own practice and community.

Jamie Waggoner: 

Jamie Waggoner is an author, Pagan priestess, and occult expert. She has been a practicing witch for 25+ years. Jamie is the author of Hades: Myth, Magic and Modern Devotion, and contributor to Witchology Magazine, Haunted Magazine, and The Feminine Macabre, among others. Jamie is also a cofounder and teacher for Way of the Weaver, an inclusive program of magical inquiry, social justice, and community building.

Website: www.jamiewaggoner.com

Social Media: @jmwaggoner (Insta, FB, and YouTube)

Transcript

Introduction to the Veil Thins Series

Granddaughter Crow 0:01

Welcome to Belief, being and Beyond with your host, Granddaughter Crow, as the Veil Thins series. Join us as Granddaughter Crow interviews spiritual leaders in riveting conversations about this time of year. Hi everybody, Granddaughter Crow here for yet another episode and or series to an episode on belief, being and beyond. I am doing the series as the veil thins and in this series, I'll be bringing you a lot of different people talking about different ways to perceive autumn, fall, sleep, death, Samhain, etc. And I have someone back that I truly admire and the work and I absolutely loved our last conversation. I have Jamie Waggoner here. Hi, say hi, Jamie.

Jamie Waggoner 1:10

Hi, thank you so much for having me back. I also really enjoyed our conversation last time and I'm really excited to be back on your channel.

Granddaughter Crow 1:20

Oh, it's so lovely to have you because in doing this series you were a no-brainer. I'm like, oh please, lord Hades, send me Jamie.

Jamie Waggoner 1:33

Say goody. Well, I am probably one prayer that he could answer in that way. Please, Lord Hades, send me Jamie. We have like a direct line going most of the time.

Granddaughter Crow 1:47

Yeah yeah, so he looped you in and, yeah, I love it. I absolutely love it. So, for those who have not yet heard of Jamie, let me just give you guys a little bit of the official bio. So, jamie Waggoner is an author, pagan priestess and a cult expert. She has been practicing for over 25 years and she's the author of Hades, myths and Magic and Modern Devotion you guys pick that up. It was released in 2025, and there is so much information in there for anybody who wants more on this topic that we're even talking about. Also, you can follow her because she's a contributor at Witchology Magazine, haunted Magazine. I think we're about ready to talk about the hunt, and so I'm like the Haunted Magazine and the Feminine Macabre I don't know how to say this word magazine and the feminine um mark I don't know how to say this word yeah, the feminine macabre.

Jamie Waggoner 2:50

So, like you know it's. Yeah, it's a. It's a cool project. It's actually my friend amanda's project and it, you know, you should check that out too. It's a paranormal journal and it's written by it's. The contributors are all women or non-binary writers writing about the paranormal and they write about all kinds of topics. It. It could be haunting, it could be paranormal investigation, it could be magic, tarot, history, anything that's kind of related to that arena. Because women and non-binary folks are often really misrepresented or underrepresented in the paranormal community. Because we see a lot of like the I like to call them the bro dudes TV shows where you have like the tough guys in the black shirts and they're yelling at ghosts and things like that. And Amanda with this project, with the journals, is really bringing a different voice and a different flavor to that. And I'm actually in volume number four and I think Amanda has six or seven volumes out at this point.

Granddaughter Crow 3:48

But yeah, you can get, I am definitely going to plug my friend Amanda there. Absolutely Call out, shout out to Amanda and thank you, thank you, thank you for that. I absolutely love it. And also one of the other things that Jamie is in is a co-founder and teacher of Way of the Weaver and it is an inclusive program of magical inquiry, social justice and community building, and we will take some time to talk about that as well. Actually, just go ahead and tell us what is the way of the weaver.

Jamie Waggoner 4:25

Well you know. So this is my collaborative teaching project with my really good friend Murphy. If you haven't figured it out, right now I do a lot of partnerships and collaborations with folks because I just really love the spirit of that, I love working together in community, and so Murphy and I our teaching program has a lot of different facets to it. We run a witchy summer camp for grownups every June. It's always the last week of June, it's in Vermont.

Jamie Waggoner 4:51

We also have a longer program that takes place over about five months, where we go we kind of give you a really solid foundation in magical technology so spell work, ritual, trance journey, all of those kinds of things. Magical technology, so spell work, ritual, trance journey, all of those kinds of things. But our viewpoint that we come from is we want to teach it almost like an open source technology, so that you learn sort of the basics and the foundation of how to do it. But then you can come back and take it to your own practice and your own community and, you know, use it in the way that makes sense to you.

Jamie Waggoner 5:22

Oh that's so beautiful. Yeah, it's great and, I think, upcoming. So those things are already either past or in progress by the time this will come out. But the thing that will be upcoming still will be our winter module, and our winter modules run January through March and they're always online, which is why we do them in the winter Cause. It's like, you know, like nobody wants to be out. You know online when it's great outside, but when it's winter, ok sure. So coming up this January, we will be having a spell work course. It's called Spells for the Resistance, so it'll be really fun and I encourage people to check that out if they, if they're interested.

Granddaughter Crow 6:01

I love that. It's all online too, and you can probably find it at your website, which is Waggoner. J-a-m-i-e-w-a-g-g-n-o-n-e-r.

Jamie Waggoner 6:14

It's okay, it's a variation on Waggoner. It's J-A-M-I-E-W-A-G-G-O-N-E-Rcom.

Jamie's Magical Practice and Way of Weaver

Granddaughter Crow 6:25

Thank you for that. Thank you for that, you're welcome. Thank you for that. I absolutely love it. So we're going to kick this off. This series is as the Veil Thins of your perspective of Hades, the underworld, your devout practice and also modern divination practices and responsible practices and self-work and all of that. But really you know to talk to us from your perspective as an occultist and a priest or a priestess or a priest X. I know you mentioned that last time. Before we get into talking about autumn and the fall and the seasons changing and Samhain and the underworld and all of that beautiful stuff, could you give us just a little bit of a flavor of what kind of which are you? What kind of priestess are you?

Jamie Waggoner 7:28

I would say I'm definitely very eclectic. I consider myself to be a pagan polytheist and within that realm I'm a hard polytheist. So that means that I believe that all the gods are real. They are very distinct entities and they all have their own agendas concerns purviews. All those gods are real, they are very distinct entities and they all have their own agendas concerns purviews, all those kinds of things, and I just choose to work with a select few of them.

Jamie Waggoner 7:52

So that kind of you know, in my practice, you know my magic has always been rooted in deity and devotion from the very beginning. So that's always been a part of my practice. And I would say, you know, I would consider myself more of a ritualist, an esoteric herbalist, so that's using the herbs for magical purposes. And you know someone that is really into mythology and folklore and folk magic especially. I have studied things like high ceremonial magic and high ritual and you know the grimoire tradition and all of those things, but those aren't really my jam. Yeah, I'm more of just I'm really really into the real practical magic of the people and how that has like just carried us through as humans for millennia.

Granddaughter Crow 8:44

So yeah, that's so beautiful, and I also, in just looking at your body of work and everything that you do, you're very inclusive, you're very consciously inclusive of all bodies, and so do you still do the priest X thing, and if so, what is that? Because I love that. I've never heard it before. Yeah.

Jamie Waggoner 9:09

Yeah. So you know, I'm fine being referred to as a priestess, like ESS on the end, or a priest X, which is just an X on the end. So it's to add a little bit more gender fluidity to that term and to make it a little less binary. So you know, we're still kind of playing around with words, aren't we? That's one of the most like wonderful things. I think that's going on in culture right now, how we're having fun playing with language and we're making language a little more inclusive and we're trying things out right. So this especially came out of Way of the Weaver, where we try to be very inclusive, very queer-centric, all of these things. And so we're like oh, priest X, let's just let's use that, because that will kind of, you know, cover a lot of ground.

Jamie Waggoner 9:56

And in fact I'm writing a book right now, sort of a follow-up to Hades. It's called One Foot in the Underworld the Path of the Death Priestess. So it kind of is. You know, it has a little bit in there about Hades, but it also just sort of it gives you a much deeper look into all of the other beings that live there and the landscape and all of that stuff and how we can assist each other, you know, magically and practically, when it comes to those big transitions like death or loss of a job, friendships that end, loss of a home, things like that, because there's many, many kinds of death and, as magical practitioners, if we have emotional intelligence around that, we can really help people a lot. One of the things we have in society right now, I think, is we have overwhelming collaborative grief and not many methods for dealing with it, and that's why we really need death priestesses right now.

Granddaughter Crow 10:55

That's so beautiful I mean, it really is and I think one of the biggest things that I enjoy is that you just don't pontificate on all of this esoteric wisdom. You're actually like and this is how we do it, this is practical, this is modern devotion. This is what it looks like in action. I had heard something the other day and it said you can pray for what you wish, but the divine will hear your prayer, but answers your hands, blesses your hands. It hears your prayer but blesses your hands, and it's basically like put it into action, people. Now I modified what I heard, as we all do, but it applies and it's kind of like you know, you're not just a let's light a candle and pray for the best. You're like let's light a candle and then do this and right yeah.

Jamie Waggoner 11:54

Yeah, I like to provide things to people that are just accessible. I don't I, you know I I'm not a fan of gatekeeping or hierarchies within magic or ritual or practice. So you know I like to, especially when you know Murphy and I are teaching in Way of the Weaver. That's why we want to give people a solid foundation, because if you understand how magic operates and works and how to build ritual and how to do all these things and to do them safely, then you can take them and become as adept as you want in the way that you want, right.

Granddaughter Crow 12:27

Yeah, it kind of makes me think of like here's the kitchen, guys, here's all the different tools. This is an oven, this is a refrigerator. This is how you treat your fruits and vegetables. This is how you da, da, da, da, da. Whatever you make, you can make Italian, or you can make Greek make, you can make italiana, or you can make greek, or you can make a salad, or you can make vegan. That's what it's coming across. Am I kind of on?

Jamie Waggoner 12:52

yeah, I think you're on the right track, totally, totally. Yeah. The other reason I I like it because, um to me, it feels more empowering. It feels, you know, that in learning like that and practicing like that, I have more agency, you have more agency. It's really great. I just really, I really like that. So we try, we try, you know, and we're always, we're always doing better because we're always learning more and we're always, you know, updating and learning and growing. So, yeah, I love that.

Autumnal Equinox and Welcoming Persephone

Granddaughter Crow 13:23

I love that. Well, it's so nice to have you on. So, as the veil thins means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, and basically what I want to talk with you, let's introduce it, starting like with autumn and the season of the autumnal equinox, and how do you perceive and approach that?

Jamie Waggoner 13:45

Yes, yeah, so the autumnal equinox is actually one of the feast days that I celebrate in my Hades practice and actually my whole household does it. My partner is the one that cooks for us, so he's the one that actually cooks all the food and although he didn't want to take credit for it, the recipes in this book are his recipes. So y'all I just have to give him, give the props where it needs to go. So y'all I just have to, like, give him, give the props where it needs to go. But you know what we do when it comes up to the autumn equinox, which is, you know, that's the day in September where there's equal night and day, right, it's right before we switch from having more light to having more dark. So it's very liminal that time. And we make a big feast and at that point in time we actually set our table for four. It's for myself, my partner, and for Hades, and for Persephone, because it's like a welcome home feast, right, because she's returning to the underworld to serve as the queen of the underworld there. So we will make a big feast. We kind of theme the food toward, you know, something that will correspond with Mediterranean food of that area. You know that area of the world to honor where that comes from. And you know, we'll just set out a table for four and we will enjoy a feast. And we don't usually do this in silence, like we usually. You know, my partner and I will chat with each other and chit chat, and you know we'll, we'll say things and then, after we're done, we this is like a modern modification of an ancient Greek way of giving offerings to the underworld we go outside and dig like a shallow pit, because in ancient Greece like offerings for the underworld were always put into the ground. So we'll, we'll dig like a shallow pit, we'll take their plates and their drinks outside, we'll put them all in the thing and we actually I know this is like kind of silly, but we also, we have a dog and we love dogs, so we put milk bones in there too, so great he's three headed dog, and you know, and then we'll cover, you know, we'll kind of cover it up, and then the what you usually do to call the attention of the underworld is you stomp three times. So we'll officially like stomp three times to let them know that the offering is there.

Jamie Waggoner 16:01

And we do that every autumn, equinox, and you know, there's a lot of traditions, um, and that's kind of a modern interpretation, right, but there are a lot of traditions that come to us through folklore about having a dinner for the dead or a supper for the dead, or a silent dinner around these times of the year, right Around the autumnal equinox.

Jamie Waggoner 16:21

Some people like to do it on Samhain, and this is very similar to that tradition, right, and sometimes so what people will do is make food and they will feast with their ancestors or with their gods. They'll leave plates out for spirit. It can take a lot of forms, like sometimes the plates are left outside, sometimes people do kind of what we do, like they set the table and then they take the plates out. Some people do it all in silence, right, so there's a lot of different ways to incorporate that. But I find it really fascinating that this idea of sitting down and having like an official kind of sit down dinner that honors unseen beings, whether they be gods or whether they be ancestors or other spirits, fae, elementals it's something that is common across a lot of cultures at this particular time. So that's one tradition. That's what we do on the autumnal equinox.

Granddaughter Crow 17:19

I love it. You know, my husband and I do a silent feast on Samhain or right around that time, and we set the table and we each get to choose two and they aren't limited to ancestor. They can be deity, like you but and they can be ancestor, but we only get enough to fill up the table and we do the spread and we do that. But I didn't know about the milk bones. No, I'm just kidding. Talk about modern divination, modern witchcraft. Get yourself some milk bones or kitty treats. I love.

Jamie Waggoner 18:00

Yeah, and actually I mean, if you want to make something really special, again, there is a recipe to make, to make like a sort of like, a sort of like bread or sort of biscuit. That was that they had in the ancient world. Because in one of the texts that I studied there was actually the recommendation was to take, take some bread or some biscuits and soak it in milk and honey. So if you need to go to the underworld, you can distract Kerberos by giving him the food and he'll go after the biscuits and the honey, and then you can kind of skedaddle on by it makes so much sense.

Granddaughter Crow 18:45

That makes so much sense.

Jamie Waggoner 18:46

You got to get at least three, because I'm pretty sure course, like it's like anything else, ancient literature and mythology is not a monolith, so there's all kinds of different descriptions of what he looks like, but it's more most commonly accepted is a dog with three heads.

Granddaughter Crow 19:02

So yeah, the season for you and your practice. And then talking more about what else do you focus on with your practice when it comes to Samhain and the fall autumn, moving into that season, so that we can all get a little bit of a glimpse through your thinning bale.

The Wild Hunt and Gwynn ap Nudd

Jamie Waggoner 19:27

Yeah. So I mean, as it kind of progresses from, you know, late September through to late October and where we're getting into Samhain, a lot of people I mean there's different dates right Like right around that calendar time. That last weekend of October into November, all souls, halloween, samhain, and some people put a specific date on Samhain. I've seen people do October 31st, I've seen them do November 1st. I don't really think that matters. I tend to do it as you know. I tend to do it by astrology. So that would be the first. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So you get it. It's the first full moon in the sign. Yeah, so I tend to date it by astrology. But this is interesting because I don't talk about this a lot, but I do actually work with some of the gods from the Welsh pantheon as well, and I haven't done any writing about it. So nobody really knows unless they've done ritual with me or classes or things like that. But so there is a deity in Welsh mythology named Gwynedd Mhys, and Gwynedd Mhys is a very interesting character. He is not human, he is of the fae of the other world, and not only that, he is the ruler of the other world, and the other world is hard to describe. It's a place where the fae live. It's a place where ancestors and the dead live. It's a place where potentially lucky humans and poets wander in and out. There is a giant cauldron there, that is. It says that it's warmed by the breath of nine maidens, and the cauldron spews out poetry and prophecy. So this is the realm that Gwyneth Neith is in charge of, and one of the things that he does is he rides out for the wild hunt, and one of the times that he does this is at Samhain, or in Welsh you would say Noscalengeaf, which means the night of Samhain, basically. And so he rides out from the other world and he has this whole host of beings and they're fae and they're phantasmic, and they're phantoms and ghouls and people riding goats and just all of this kind of like, if you can think of all of the like spooky kind of imagery and they're on a wild hunt for souls. They're gathering up souls that might be wandering, that might be lost. They're also, you know, they might also come and take you away to the other world. If you are, you know not if you're disrespecting the land. If you are, you know not if you're disrespecting the land. If you are, you know, a person who is a person who is not of integrity, things like that, and he's a pretty formidable character, a bit of a trickster, a bit of a death god, a bit of a bit of a fae, all those kinds of things. And one of the things that you can do, that we do on Nois Galengeif, is we leave out offerings for the wild hunt and so, and there are a lot of dogs in the wild hunt, the Kununun, so basically the dogs of the other world, and they're white and they have red ears, yeah, so they're very, that's how you know them.

Jamie Waggoner 22:49

And so on that night you put out sort of things that they might need on their trip, right. So it's very common to put out bread and butter, it's common to put out milk or wine or something like that. And you know, I usually put out like some kind of little like meat or something like that that the animals would like. And you know, you put all that out on your front doorstep and you light like a single candle, right, so they can see it. I usually use again, because I like to modernize things I use an electric light because safety first, kids, right, you're leaving this outside. So you know you leave out those things for them and you know if you do that, that's a sign of respect and a sign that you honor the old ways, you honor the traditions, you honor the land, and so they'll come by and take your offering and pass you right on by.

Jamie Waggoner 23:41

The thing is you have to remember on that night, if you hear the sound of dogs barking at night, that's the wild hunt. And because this is a fae being who's very tricky, the further away the dogs sound, the closer they are to you. So you have, I mean, that's that's like the? Yeah, it's, it's very interesting and a lot of people report like hearing dogs bark and then like actually feeling like the wind pick up a little bit and things like that. Yeah, in fact there was one. I think it was two years ago.

Jamie Waggoner 24:15

I noticed Callan Gaiff, my partner again, was helping me. He's kind of like my witch assistant. He helps me do all these things. So we're putting out our offerings and I light the candle and I put it down, and just as I put it down you can hear dogs barking and I like stood up and I put it down and just as I put it down you can hear dogs barking. And I and I like stood up and I looked at him. I'm like, did you hear that? And he just looked at me and just shook his head and he's like I really hate it when you do that. And he just walked back and but yeah, it's um. So that's, that's a Samhain thing. You know that's a Samhain thing. Gwyneth and the Wild Hunt are riding that night and around that time.

Granddaughter Crow 24:55

Claire, is there a particular day that you would say to do this, or is it kind of free? Like you were talking about, different people do Samhain on different nights. Do you have any thoughts on I?

Jamie Waggoner 25:07

would do it. I mean, I do it on the night of the full moon, but I think, say kind of any, any, I think really any time within that sort of very liminal couple weeks. There you know where you're at the end of October and early November, because, you know, in my personal belief time is a bit of an illusion, right, so you know. So I always tell people do what you can do, you can get as close as you can, but if you have to do it a little bit for a little bit after, it still counts. I feel like magic is something that can stretch kind of across distance and through time and kind of, you know, go where it needs to go. So I wouldn't tell people to stress about it too much. If you want to pick like a date, I would pick November 1st.

Granddaughter Crow 25:53

I love it, I absolutely love it. You guys, this is getting so much fun and juicy and exactly beautiful. So you know we're talking about other worlds. We're talking about a veil, right, and it's very common concept for people to say, oh, the veil's getting thin. Oh, the veil's getting thin, and I think that there are times that it gets thinner, not just because of the season and the weather changing and autumn coming I think that that kind of the releasing and the end where it gets thin but I also think that the veil gets thin because, collectively, we're saying the veil is thin. So what I would love to hear is like you don't need a scholarly thought, but what do you think? What is, how do you perceive the veil and what makes it get thinner around this time?

Jamie Waggoner 26:52

if it does, yeah, Uh well, I mean, I, I, I guess in my own personal belief system I would see the realm of the unseen or the realm of these other worlds. I feel like they're directly parallel to ours, so they're just layered right on top of each other and there is a bit of a veil. I guess you would call it a veil, but to me it's an awareness really more than a veil. Call it a veil, but to me it's an awareness really more than a veil. So I feel like you might feel the same, like I feel like I often interact with the unseen. They're around me all the time, in communication, they're reacting to what I'm doing and, like you know, so there's for me there's not a veil really anymore, but it's because I have that awareness and because I've developed that relationship with beings that are unseen to me, that are non-corporeal, but I still know they're there and it's very evidential and very real and physical for me, I think, for our culture, especially, like here in North America where you and I are.

Jamie Waggoner 28:00

I think that you know, yes, we're like a bunch of people are saying the veil is thinning, right, so they're speaking it into existence, and then I think that there's also that's when people are open to it, right, they sort of open their minds a little bit and they're like, ok, I think it might be fun to be a little spooky or a little scared or to you know, maybe pay attention to those shivers that are crawling up my spine, and it's kind of the they're giving themselves permission to actually be aware of those, those parallel worlds that just overlay the world that we're in. So yeah, I don't think there's actually a veil, it's more of an awareness for me, if that makes sense.

Granddaughter Crow 28:49

It makes perfect sense. It's just like oh well, this is the scene, and anything that's unseen is divided by a perceived unseen veil that we can understand as a curtain, because that's what we understand to divide. But I love that. And you know, one of the other things in Samhain, like how do you approach Samhain from your point of view, beyond what you're saying, and especially when it comes to death, dying and all things like that, last time we had such a brilliant conversation around, just like, especially like you said, us in North America may struggle with the concepts of death, more so, maybe even than other cultures, because we don't have the time or because things are always processed outside of our view and we're not participatory. But you know there's a lot of people around that may be tapping into this podcast that are like I want to. You know, my somebody just passed, or this person passed, my sister just left. Is she here? What does Jamie have to say about that? Where did my sister go, jamie? Yeah, I know, put you on the spot, right.

Jamie Waggoner 30:11

Well, honestly, your sister. I can't tell you where your sister went. I'm guessing she probably went to the the afterlife dimension, that of her preference. Honestly, that's kind of what I think. You know, my, my, my loose sort of idea of what.

Granddaughter Crow 30:31

I agree. I agree with you. 100, jamie, I do.

Understanding the Veil and Awareness

Jamie Waggoner 30:34

Yeah, but you know, I think so I guess to. First of, I think that you know, the dead are always among us, no matter what they are. They are around us all the time. Again, they're part of that unseen world that is actually just around us, even though if we don't have awareness and some people actually purposely kind of shut off their awareness they're like I don't want to know, I can't explain it, I don't want to know.

Jamie Waggoner 31:01

But when it comes to you know, especially like the recently deceased, like, say, a family member or a close friend or someone that has just died, I'm often asked like, well, should we, should we? Should I try to contact them or should I just leave them alone? Right Question, right. And so that's what you know. When you ask me that, that's kind of what I thought about and what I. What I tell people is I say let your deceased loved one take the lead. Ok, so they are.

Jamie Waggoner 31:31

Probably, if you're in close relationship, they're probably going to contact you somehow. Probably, if you're in close relationship, they're probably going to contact you somehow. Either they're going to send you a physical sign. Very common signs are birds, butterflies, things like that, coins, money, things. You know. Something fun you can do is, if you know the loved one is dying, you can agree on signs, right, because that's like really, really fun, right.

Jamie Waggoner 31:56

But what will often happen and what does happen to me quite frequently is, when someone dies, you can begin contacting them and doing that sort of ancestor work with them once they appear in your dreams. So, which is you know? I think that probably I'm just guessing when you land in whatever afterlife you land in, there's probably a little period where you're adjusting, right. It's like when you move somewhere new, you're figuring out where the grocery store is, where the gas station is, where to walk your dog, do all those things. So there's an orientation period, probably, and they're probably doing some things that they need to do to get settled, probably, and they're probably doing some things that they need to do to get settled. But once they show themselves to you, I think that that's the key, that, yes, like they're settled enough that we can move this thing forward. So I would say, you know, pay attention to your dreams, especially when you have a very close friend or a loved one that passes over.

Granddaughter Crow 32:58

I love that because, you know, it was really interesting to me when my father passed over. I am used to feeling his spirit here on earth and I could feel he was gone. It was the first time I've ever felt that, because he had been around my whole life. Right, he's my father and it was the first time I ever was like whoa, his spirit does not exist here on earth and I kind of had a little bit of an existential crisis around what? Because I'm like, well, I'm freaking granddaughter crow, you'd think that I would be able to access my deceased father, father, and I couldn't find him. I couldn't hear him, but until and I'll tell you that, but there was one point, when I looked in the mirror, after about three days of just feeling lost, I looked in the mirror and I was like, oh, that's his nose.

Granddaughter Crow 33:56

These are his cheekbones, these are his eyes, and I just looked in the mirror and I was like he lives within me, I am the future of my, of my father, and his spirit and his voice and um. And it just brought me a lot of comfort because then I knew I carried him with me and then about a little while later he showed up in a dream. He wasn't 91 years old, dead, he was like 32 years old and he was all in shape and he was like hey, let me give you some wisdom. And I was like, so he did, come and share that with me. But I really like that letting them take the lead. I think that that's very beautiful and also knowing that the consciousness is there and the beauty around that.

Granddaughter Crow 34:42

There are some people who refuse, for whatever reason, and I will not challenge them on it. If their psyche isn't ready to go there, don't go there. You know, yeah, I honor that. I honor that. It kind of wants me to. It begs the question around your book, the one Hades in the underworld and all of that. From that perspective, how would that Hades in the underworld perceive the dead? Or, from that perspective, how would you talk about death, because a lot of people think that Hades is the lord of death, and you know, and it's hell that you're going to, and all of these things and I just kind of want to break a little bit of that thought up and get the truth, you know.

Jamie Waggoner 35:31

So for, yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. So, first of all, Hades is not all. Hades is not the god of death. Hades is the king, or the ruler or, as his epithet says, the host of the realm of the dead. So he is the one that is in charge of the realm in ancient Greek mythology.

Death, Deceased Loved Ones, and Dreams

Jamie Waggoner 35:55

It's a vast place and it has many different areas. It's, by and large, not a scary place and it's I think of it like I almost equate it to an airport terminal. Right, it's like you've gone to the airport and you're waiting for your next flight, like that's basically where you've landed, that's the Asphodel fields of the underworld, which is where most of us go, and it's not a bad place or a good place. You're just sort of floating around until it's time for you to reincarnate again. Is that it was actually the default state of being human? Was being dead, like not being alive, like you're occasionally alive, but you're more often than not you're dead and you're in the underworld. I love that, yeah, because there is a cycle of reincarnation, of being born again and doing things over again. You know, sometimes if you are an especially virtuous person or you engage in certain mystery traditions, you can go to the Elysian Fields, which is kind of like, like you know, it's a beautiful, bright, sunny place, it's very calm, it's very comfortable, you know, and if you, you know, you're able to kind of attain that, you know, three times or more times, you have the choice to escape the circle of incarnation, if you want to, by going to. Also is not the judge of the dead. There are actually three individuals that are the three judges that all mortal shades like pass through, you know when they're, and that's kind of like sorting, almost like a sorting hat, like you know, you go here, you go here, you go here, kind of thing. And yeah, so it's a very, it's a very different perspective.

Jamie Waggoner 37:57

It's definitely not the Christian hell, like when we talk about Hades versus hell, we're talking about two different mythologies entirely. So the reason that they get mixed up sometimes is we had a bit of a lost in translation issue and I think that we talked about that last time. It's because an ancient Hebrew word was translated into the New Testament, into Greek, and the word was shul, which is a certain place in the Jewish afterlife, and it's not necessarily, you know, equal with what Hades is, and you know, hades is the name of the God and the name of the underworld. A lot of times people will just call the whole realm Hades after its ruler. I tend not to, because I don't want to confuse people. So when I say Hades, I'm talking about the god and when I say the underworld, I'm talking about the realm. But shoal is not equivalent to Hades, but it was translated as Hades, as the Greek word Hades, and that's how it made its way into the New Testament, right.

Jamie Waggoner 39:00

And then you have some writers that came along, like Dante and John Milton, and so they were very creative and they just kind of incorporated Greek mythology into their, like religious prose and you know, so you get, like these things kind of overlapping and intersecting in ways that unfortunately, were not the best for Hades and his underworld, because it's very it's not, it's just not equivalent Basically, the idea that I want people to take away and yeah, it's not really, it's not really a place to be feared or a god to be feared, really. Yeah, you know, unless you're a bad guy, you're not doing what you should. That's really you know. That's really what you know, the only thing you need to worry about.

Granddaughter Crow 39:50

I really love that and I can assimilate that, even though I haven't worked or dedicated a lot to Hades. Just from a shamanistic point of view, I go to the underworld all the time Like I'm more connected to the underworld than the upper world because that's where I can do stuff, that's where I can like. For me, the upper world it's more like learning or, you know, I'm getting guidance, I'm getting direction, I'm learning stuff like that. But the underworld is kind of where you get to do stuff. That's kind of how I see it from my shamanic practice. So I absolutely love the underworld personally and I'm digging what you say.

Jamie Waggoner 40:35

Yeah, I would agree with that. I feel like again, and it could be maybe just because you and I are very practical in our, in our practices um, I, yeah, it's uh there, you know the, if you're up in, uh like the uranic realms is what it would be in the greek tradition, like up there kind of in the ethers, um, it's just, you know it's, it's, it's. It's not like good or bad, there's no like sort of like designation like that. I just prefer the vibes of the underworld. I think, and, yeah, and I think I love how it's.

Jamie Waggoner 41:08

Very, you know, one of the unexpected things that I discovered is how nourishing the underworld can be, how, because you know Hades has seen the vast sort of All facets of humanity.

Jamie Waggoner 41:24

I mean, he, he's been doing this for a very, very long time and there's like nothing that could happen in your life or nothing that you feel you need to hide, that he hasn't seen or had experience with. So I feel like there's a type of acceptance in the underworld that's often hard to find other places and, um, and you know, and you won't really be be judged for those things that you know in your day-to-day life. The persona you have to show to the world are maybe not safe for you. You know, and um Hades like not, his realm is not only sort of where all of the the shades of mortals are right. His realm also includes everything beneath the surface of the earth. So you know the dirt that grows plants, you know all of those like precious minerals and crystals that we enjoy, and you know things that you know like natural gas and oil deposits, and all of those things are part of his realm. So there's a real sort of earthy groundedness and nourishment that I did not expect at all before I started working with him.

Hades and the Underworld Explained

Granddaughter Crow 42:33

So beautiful. Well, it makes sense. It feeds your roots, right? I mean, it's where we all come from and it's ancient. And so here's a question. As we start wrapping up, let's say that there is a listener who can't, doesn't have, is not in the situation where they can externally practice, so they couldn't do something like this on Samhain or Halloween. Is there like a secret way, a little fun, witchy way, that maybe a closet broom, closet witch or a cultist or spiritually curious person could just go? Well, you know, jamie Waggoner and Granddaughter Crowe said that time is elusive and I really want to just eat this cookie and share it with a deity or my passed over sister or something, and then bury it. You know, is there something that they could do, or would that be disrespectful?

Jamie Waggoner 43:34

Could they be creative in that way, or no, I don't think it would be disrespectful, especially if you're so in magic. Intention means a lot. Intention powers a lot of things. It's very important not to give it more weight than impact. Right, we want to make sure that we're considering our impacts when we do things, especially if they might impact others beyond ourselves. To say that I had to be like okay, let's be safety kids, let's consider impact, let's go back to intention. So intention is it, does it fuels magic.

Jamie Waggoner 44:11

And if you can, um, quiet your mind and center your focus, um, it can be as easy to. Uh, if, for example I'll just use the example of Hades, because that's what I'm most familiar with um, I greet Hades each morning just with a very, very deep breath, first of all, and it's, you know, I'm just actually I'm offering him that breath and it's, and people don't realize what a powerful offering that is for someone who is non-corporeal. I'm actually giving them some of my life Right, non-corporeal. I'm actually giving them some of my life right and allowing them. I even go so far as inviting Hades to experience it like I experience it physically, like the inhale and the lungs opening up and the exhale, the big bellows of the lungs pushing it out. Nobody has to know what you're doing. It's a completely silent process.

Jamie Waggoner 45:07

And I think the other thing that's real easy and approachable for folks to do is to light a candle. I mean, you can, you know you can. Lighting a candle is pretty innocuous, like if you don't tell anybody what you're doing. They're probably not going to know. And again, don't worry, if you live in a place where you're not allowed to have open flames, get yourself an electric candle. The deities are not going to care, the gods are not going to care. They care that you took the time to get something and you took a quiet moment, sent out your intention and lit that thing intentionally. That's what they care about.

Jamie Waggoner 45:41

It's that action that you're taking Right, not sort of the you know how the structure or the setup or how it looks on the outside, right, because that intention will it's like a beacon, like it will go out and it will be received. You know, and there's lots of times where you can, you know, if you want to engage in these practices of having the dinners or leaving offerings, things like that just you know, go to a park or a lake and maybe feed some birds, right, like, like, like you know pick something you can do that's not really going to cause too much suspicion. Or you know people looking at you funny. But again, the intentional part is what, it's what happening. You know you're walking up, you're taking a moment, you're taking that breath, you're tearing up those little bread pieces or whatever you're doing, and just you know, just like in your heart, saying you know, this is the offering for my ancestors, or this is the offering for the wild hunt, or this is the offering for the whatever.

Granddaughter Crow 46:43

Because I think that that signal will be heard loud and clear whatever, because I think that that signal will be heard loud and clear. Yeah, that is absolutely amazing, jamie. Thank you so much and I'm looking forward to your next book, whenever it comes out. Maybe I could convince you once again to join us on Belief, being and Beyond. Yeah, and so you guys check out like the way of the weaver. You know, go to Waggoner. Follow jamie on social media. I think it's just jm Waggoner yeah, yeah, everywhere.

Jamie Waggoner 47:18

I mean instagram, facebook, youtube. It's just jm Waggoner. Yeah, all the places. I try to make it as easy as I can.

Granddaughter Crow 47:35

Yeah, I just absolutely loved. Thank you so much for sharing this with us because, as we gain and grow and try to focus our lives in this very crazy world that we might be experiencing, it's really nice to have people who authentically practice practical magic and work with deities that can come into our podcast or we can watch on YouTube to remind us. It's food for the soul about what this season is and I really honor you and all that you stand for and I just really appreciate you. Thank you so much for being here.

Jamie Waggoner 48:08

Oh my gosh, the same same right back to you.

Granddaughter Crow 48:12

So anyway, and back to you listeners, we love you and all that you stand for and everything.

Granddaughter Crow 48:19

Please like, subscribe, follow, but I would love to hear if anybody has any other stories about Hades, the underworld, the hunt, all of that kind of stuff. Let's start engaging. You can comment below, I will see it. I will comment back and I am just so excited much. Have a wonderful autumn, Samhain, however you celebrate this time and thank you for tuning in. I love you and we'll see you on the flippity flip as the Veil Thin series join us as Granddaughter Crow interviews spiritual leaders in riveting conversations about this time of year.